I’ve had several people write to me with questions or comments about the article. I’m going to address those comments on the blog.

First comment:

I would argue that you may have used commas in places they are not needed.

“Capitalization doesn’t matter, because the major engines aren’t case sensitive at this point in time.”

“This is ‘correct,’ because the comma is . . .”

I prefer the following:

“Capitalization doesn’t matter because the major engines aren’t case sensitive at this point in time.”

“This is ‘correct’ because the comma is . . .”

I would guess that your logic is that you are “naturally” pausing. However, I find that people rely on that logic far too often. My suggestion is to stick with the accepted usage, judiciously adding “pausing” commas only when necessary. Some people pause often when speaking; writing that reflects that tendency becomes muddled and difficult to read.

(back to Robin)

I knew when I wrote the article that readers would not only comment on the tips but on other aspects of the article, and I was right! I do love a good challenge!

I see what you mean and I agree about the overuse of commas. Commas need to be used correctly, but there is some subjective playing room involved.

I don’t believe in answering any questions without going to a credible source. So let’s go to the online version of The Chicago Manual of Style.

Here’s what they say:

“A dependent clause that follows a main clause should not be preceded by a comma if it is restrictive, that is, essential to the meaning of the main clause. If it is merely supplementary or parenthetical, it should be preceded by a comma. (Note that the distinction is occasionally tenuous; if in doubt, use a comma to indicate a pause.)”

Then they give several examples that are quite confusing to me. Here are two of them that I would like to discuss with you.

He didn’t run because he was afraid; he ran because it had started to rain.

but . . .

He didn’t run, because he was afraid to move.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

In the first example, I can understand why they didn’t use a comma. The dependent clause is essential to the meaning of the sentence.

In the second example, however, I would argue that the dependent clause is also essential to the meaning of the sentence. I don’t understand why they used a comma UNLESS they felt it was needed to indicate a pause.

Here’s my sentence again:

“Capitalization doesn’t matter, because the major engines aren’t case sensitive at this point in time.”

The 2nd part of the sentence may or may not be crucial to the sentence itself. I simply added more information for the benefit of the readers. I could have ended the sentence at the comma.

This being the case, the comma should be there because it’s a non-restrictive clause. Also, I do consider a pause as being necessary in that sentence. This is a personal preference on my part.

However, it could easily be debated that it’s restrictive to those who don’t know that none of the major engines is case sensitive.

What are your thoughts, based on Chicago’s guidelines and examples?

What does everyone else think? This one is a little tricky.

Robin

Another comment from e-mail:

I would argue that you may have used commas in places they are not needed.

This is “correct,” because the comma is . . .

(from Robin)

Let me refer to the full sentences here:

Example: This is “incorrect”, because the comma is outside of the quotation marks. (incorrect)

It should be: This is “correct,” because the comma is . . .

These were simply examples used to explain how commas and periods should always go inside quotation marks. This is a very common error, so I was pointing it out.

I could have probably come up with a better sentence structure in order to demonstrate the example, but I was only thinking “EXAMPLE.”

A better example is in the sentence above.

I hope this makes sense. If not, let me know.

Robin

Another comment from e-mail:

P.S. Under SEOs or SEO’s, at the end of the 2nd graph, you don’t need an ending quotation mark after Take your pick.

(from Robin)

Actually, I do need an ending quotation mark there. That entire sentence is a quote from a grammar book.

However, you showed me an error I’d made in the article. There was a quote inside the paragraph, and I’d left double quotation marks around that quote. I should have used single quotation marks like this:

“How to form the plural of letters and numbers is a stylistic decision. There are no rights and wrongs, merely eye appeal. Some writers would write the plural of O.K. with no apostrophe, and follow suit with the plural of letters (the three Rs) and numbers (the 1930s). Others think the apostrophe makes for clarity (the three R’s, the 1930’s). Consider ‘Hooray for the YMCAs.’ Take your pick.”

THANK YOU for taking the time to write and point out the quotation mark. I wouldn’t have found the error otherwise!

Robin

Robin Nobles launches Idea Motivator Blog…

Robin Nobles, a name in the SEO Industry, recently started a new blog called Idea Motivator.  I’ve been associated with Search Engine Workshops as a Chat Moderator that focuses on Advanced Topics for 3 years - usually giving an SEO……

Hi Robin,
Great article! And I wholly agree that folks have gotten a bit lax with the grammar lately. However, as a long-time freelance copywriter I’d like to add a couple of thoughts…

One is that when it comes to writing copy, strict adherence to grammar is not considered necessary. Why? Becasue the best copy sounds like someone speaking to you. And we don’t generally use proper grammar when we speak these days. So it’s fair game to use words like lotsa, or even sentence fragments. Like this one.

Also, your main reference book is the Chicago Manual. This is the manual by which most of us were taught to write in school. However most journalists and copywriters adhere to the AP Stylebook. In this stylebook, for example, you do not put the second comma in a list of three items (Example: I like this, that and the other).

If you don’t already have a copy, I highly recommend it. And it’s a whole lot cheaper than the Chicago Manual.

Just a bit of food for thought. Thanks again for sharing!!

Robin–
Thanks so much for this article. I think you’ve covered all (or most) of my grammar pet peeves, even if you did have to go and point out that alright isn’t a word. Well, technically, it is a word, just a nonstandard spelling. What can I say, I’m a fan of The Who. The kids ARE alright.

I have to differ with Stacy, however. In college, I used Chicago in history classes, AP in communications classes, APA in social sciences, a few lesser known/made up ones and MLA in most others. In high school, all disciplines used MLA citation. If you’re a copywriter, I think chances are reasonable that you majored in English and used MLA extensively, or that you majored in whatever and used whatever style guide was correct for your discipline. Personally, I dislike the AP because it insists on “Web site,” which I think is archaic.

Robin, please tell the writers at ABC’s “Jeopardy” to stop putting commas outside quotation marks! Commas and periods outside quotation marks look like they’re trying to wander away.

Stacy,

Yes, different grammar books will give different guidelines. Very good point. Another point is that different publishers have different guidelines.

I’m a long-time freelance writer too. I wrote newspaper columns for over ten years, and I’ve also written print books. With my last print book, their grammar/writers’ guidelines were unbelievable.

I used seven different grammar books when writing this article, and I referred to them all (grueling experience!). However, several of them had older publishing dates, so I purchased a newer book: Chicago.

When I found out they had an online version with Q&As, I was thrilled. The site is searchable so I could easily find what I was looking for. I used Chicago more because it’s fresher material.

As a newspaper columnist, I honestly found few differences between grammar guidelines used by AP versus a source like Chicago. The comma series is one of the main ones.

I don’t believe that strict adherence to grammar is unnecessary, however. Your comment that the best copy sounds like someone speaking to you is absolutely true and a great guide for writers. But that doesn’t mean the grammar has to be incorrect.

I’m not on a crusade to make the Internet a walking grammar book–don’t get me wrong! But I still believe we need to remember basic grammar guidelines in order to maintain professionalism on the Web in places that are meant to be professional.

I personally wouldn’t say “lotsa” in a newspaper or magazine article (because it’s not a word I use), but I can see how you could use it to make a point. I use sentence fragments to make points, which is perfectly okay if done properly.

Thanks so much for posting.

Robin

Jordan,

You know, one of my favorite grammar books is The St. Martin’s Handbook. I used it when doing research for this article, but the publishing date was 1992 so I didn’t quote from it. However, supporting research did come from it. It’s a great resource.

I never use just one resource, especially in an article like this. I’m know I’m going to be hit by too many people like you guys who really know your stuff!

By the way, I like what you said about “Web site.” I use Web site because it was drilled into me by editors in my last print book.

But here’s my soap box.

We’re the ones who use the Internet. We’re the ones who write the content. I had a very difficult time FINDING grammar rules for the Internet-related “errors” I gave in the article. So books like Chicago come along and make up the rules for us to follow. There have to be rules, right?

Another book or dictionary says just the opposite. We choose which one we like and go down that route.

But where does popular usage come in? I read a New York Times article the other day where the article used “e-mails,” and it looked so totally wrong.

Your opinion is that “Web site” is archaic. The majority of the Web audience would agree with you.

I’m a stickler for grammar, so it sounds like I’m contradicting myself, doesn’t it?

Robin

Lee,

What a good “rule of thumb” to help you remember that commas and periods always go inside quotation marks:

Commas and periods outside quotation marks look like they’re trying to wander away.

I love it!!

Thanks for that tip!

Robin

Thank you for bringing this topic to the forefront! I’m so tired of abandoning sites I would otherwise like to read because the grammar is so poor I cannot concentrate on the topic at hand.

Why people feel it is OK to ignore basic grammar on the Web confounds me. Don’t they want to appear intelligent, trustworthy, and knowledgable?

Kudos to Robin for her brave effort to moderate discussions on something as elusive as the English language.
(sound of applause).

The rule that sentence punctuation be contained within quotes is dated. In computer work, it is often necessary to give explicit instructions. When I tell you to visit “http://www.dair.com”, clarity is lost if the comma were inside the parenthesis. Likewise, “Do no evil”, a motto adapted by Google, is a complete thought. That thought does not have a comma in it. I understand that grammarians want puctuation inside quotes. However, it is more logical for punctuation relating to the sentence and not the material quoted to be placed outside.

Thanks for your post, Dennis. However, I won’t back down on this one. This rule isn’t dated. It doesn’t matter if it’s a complete thought or not. Clarity isn’t lost if the comma is inside the quotes or not. Commas and periods are ALWAYS inside quotes. This one isn’t negotiable. The only time this rule deviates is between British or US guidelines.

I’m always willing to debate issues, but this is one rule that just isn’t subject to debate. All grammar books agree. It’s not outdated.

Sorry–grammar is grammar. This one doesn’t change just because we want it to change.

Robin

I agree with Robin on this one. Puntuation inside quotation marks. I’ll mention one source, a fellow by the name of E.B. White (Strunk & White’s Elements of Style,Third Edition, p.36): “When a quotation is followed by an attributive phrase, the comma is enclosed within the quotation marks.” If I get to choose my team, I’ll take E.B. White.

Robin,

There are more languages in use than British or American English: PHP, Perl, C, Basic, Python, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, …. The Elements of Style predate the entire computer and internet revolution. All of the aforementioned languages have grammars and all of these languages have come into being since the 1930’s.

Grammar and spelling evolve to meet ongoing needs. This is clearly seen over the span of hundreds of years (e.g. Shakespeare).

Here is yet another example of clarity required for the computer age. Suppose I write

Type “http://www.any.com.”

The “.” is correct according to dated grammar rules but lacks clarity since the literal enclosed in quotations should not contain a period. Contrawise

Type “http://www.any.com”.

admits of only a single interpretation: the trailing period is not part of the literal to be typed.

Dennis,

I’ve actually used the above example when quoting someone who’s given a URL at the end of a sentence. I’ve done it the correct way, and it hasn’t been a problem at all.

The grammar books aren’t dated, not unless you’re considering RIGHT NOW to be dated. I’m referring to the online version of Chicago. Check it out for yourself. There’s a 30-day free trial version. They even tell you where to separate a URL on a line if it doesn’t fit on one line.

With URLs and when working online, the URL is hyperlinked, and the comma and period don’t matter except from a grammar standpoint.

Robin

Dennis, I tried to find a few legitimate publications whose editorial formats were in agreement with your suggestion that punctuation should go outside quotation marks. I looked at the content of Reuters News Agency, the Associated Press, Time Magazne, Newsweek Magazine, and PC Computing, but could find no examples. I also think you would agree that these publications are not “dated.” Do you have any authoritative sources other than the unique requirements of software languages? There will always be exceptions, with “techno-speak” as a prime example. But I don’t think it makes sense to suggest that exceptions should supplant what is obviously the norm.

Lee,

The fact that a publication’s content is not dated does not exclude the possiblity that their formatting or delivery methods are.

Personally, I dislike the American quotation-punctuation rule. What do you do when a sentence formed as a question ends in a “direct quotation?” (I realise that sentence didn’t need quotation marks, it was for demonstrative purposes.) It looks exactly the same as a statement ending in a quoted question; such as, “Isn’t this confusing?” The whole thing reminds me of the clumsy work-arounds to solve the alleged “split infinitive rule”.

If the quotation is a complete sentence, I will put the appropriate punctuation at the end of it. If it comes at the end of the sentence and the two marks match, I will drop the latter to keep from writing .”. or ?”? (you’ll excuse me for not putting quotations around those examples). But if the quotation comes at the end and does not match the punctuation of the sentence, the use of both marks is, in my opinion appropriate; especially if the quotation is the question. And if the quotation is not a complete sentence at all, then it seems wrong to punctuate it as a complete sentence for a rule based, as far as I can tell, soley on aesthetics.

Example:
Did you just yell, “I’m so happy!” or “I’m sappy!”?

The American way, while arguably more aesthetically pleasing, is counter-intuitive to the purpose of punctuation; which is, to clarify meaning and intent in written language. Then again, I still double-space after full stops and colons (whether HTML displays them is not my problem), use a comma before the conjunction of the final item of a list, and spell words with all the appropriate ‘u’s and silent ‘gh’s intact.

Anyways, on to what really prompted my post. The example, “He didn’t run, because he was afraid to move.” requires a comma, not because the dependant clause is not essential, but because it clarifies the meaning of the sentence: without the comma, it infers that he did run, but not for the stated reason.

-The ramblings of a Pseudo-Brit Canuck.

A final note:

“Capitalization doesn’t matter. The major engines aren’t case sensitive at this point in time.”

That a seperate sentence, not a dependent clause. The comma belongs there.

Eogan,

You’re switching from commas and periods to exclamation points and questions, which are entirely different animals with different rules.

Unlike periods and commas, these all follow closing quotation marks unless a question mark or an exclamation point belongs within the quoted matter. (quoted from The Chicago Manual of Style)

Regarding using two forms of punctuation at the end of a sentence, here’s what Chicago says:

Q. Oh, English-language gurus, is it ever proper to put a question mark and an exclamation mark at the end of a sentence in formal writing? This author is giving me a fit with some of her overkill emphases, and now there is this sentence that has both marks at the end. My everlasting gratitude for letting me know what I should tell this person.

A. In formal writing, we allow both marks only in the event that the author was being physically assaulted while writing. Otherwise, no.

Thanks so much for writing.

Robin

Is it safe to say that all punctuation should be inside the quotation mark? If so, is the following sentence grammatically correct?

This would apply only to a small percentage of applicants in which the severity of the individual’s impairment clearly presents a question or concern in regards to potential services and “ability to benefit.”

Thanks in advance for your help…I love your Web site.

Joan

Joan,

Your sentence is correct.

However, not all punctuation should always appear within quotes. Question marks and exclamation points don’t always appear within quotes. It all depends on the sentence itself.

I’m glad you enjoy the blog. I hope you visit (and post) often!

Robin

I have to agree with Dennis that certain technical writing can be made more clear by violating the rule on punctuation within quotes. Consider the following sentences that may be part of an instruction manual:

The URL is “http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Local.shtml.”

The URL is “http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Local.shtml”.

If the user typed the quoted characters exactly into their browser, the “grammatically correct” first sentence would cause an error, while the “user friendly” second sentence would work.

While grammatically incorrect, the second sentence is technically more correct for the purpose given. As Dennis said, there are many programming languages with very specific grammar. Most of these languages also punish the slightest variance from the correct grammar with compiler errors and program crashes. People in the IT world have developed their own grammatical style to avoid misinterpretations that could arise from “grammatically correct” punctuation. As Robin pointed out, there are many different style manuals in existence today, some at variance with each other. Perhaps it’s only a matter of time until an IT style manual is published.

Dave,

While I stand behind my 10 or so grammar books, I do understand and appreciate what you’re saying.

I also understand how it is to put a period inside the quotes with a URL, and it messes up the clickability of the URL.

So, I’ll back you and Dennis on this one:

“While grammatically incorrect, the second sentence is technically more correct for the purpose given.”

Wow! You changed my mind with a grammar rule. That’s almost impossible to do!

I think I’ll post this one to Chicago and see what they say! I’ll let you know.

Robin

I have a question regarding the Chicago Manual of Style. I have worked exclusively with AP Style, MLA style and very little APA style. Is Chicago Maunal of Style strictly geered towards publishing and research, or does it include Web writing as well? The reason I ask is because there are so many different styles to choose from currently. I tend to favor AP Style myself and there are some definite stylistic differences. Though the differences are minimal to say the least they do exist and different writing forums call for different styles.

For instance, you state that Chicago Manual of Style calls for a comma when making a list.
a. To separate words in a list (apples, oranges, bananas, and grapes). Notice that I used a comma before the and. Grammar sources such as Chicago strongly recommend inserting the last comma. Here’s an example from Chicago:
“I want no ifs, ands, or buts.”

AP style governs omitting the last comma before and or, or in a list.

Also, I enjoyed your excerpt on commas. I was the copy-editor for my college newspaper and I was constantly adding commas or taking them away depending on the type of clause.

I really enjoyed your article.

Thanks,
Sarah